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Take-Down of Thermaltake's Engineering & Marketing 

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Thermaltake doesn't get anymore chances to improve its marketing or basic design flaws. We've been trying to privately inform Thermaltake how to improve for years, but they haven't listened.
Sponsor: Buy Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut on Amazon (geni.us/1D8Eeq) or Hydronaut paste (geni.us/Fsray)
Thermaltake's latest virtual Computex showcase featured the Tower 100 mini-ITX case, the Divider 300 TG ARGB, new power supplies, and the Floe RC. Some of these products are actually promising, but Thermaltake frustratingly botches the final stretch of details that would take it from "almost really good" to "actually really good." We're tired of trying to help Thermaltake improve its products via emails and discussions at tradeshows, so hopefully this will help the company wake up to some of its frustrating, repeat shortcomings and mistakes. We want Thermaltake to get better. Good people work at the company, but word isn't making it high enough up the chain. The products are so consistently close to competitive that it's painful to see them miss on often easily fixed issues or quality control problems.
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TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - TT Showcases Inability to Improve
03:30 - It's Different This Time
05:34 - Some of Thermaltake's Misleading BS: Floe RC
06:14 - Thermaltake's Misleading Claims on Floe RC
09:25 - Thermaltake's Tower 100 Case & Repeat Issues
12:02 - Thermaltake's Extra-Dimensional Physics
14:45 - Unbelievably Frustrating Product Development
16:36 - Exceptions to Thermaltake's Mistakes
18:22 - The Tower 100 Could Be Really Good if TT Listened
19:24 - Thermaltake 300 TG ARGB Divider is Almost Good (Again)
21:37 - TT Doesn't Know How to Build a Computer
22:35 - Risk of Perception of Thermaltake as a "Knock-Off Brand"
24:04 - Thermaltake Toughfan 12 vs. Noctua
24:47 - Conclusion

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Editorial, Host: Steve Burke
Video: Keegan Gallick

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Jun 8, 2020

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Comments 100   
Gamers Nexus
Gamers Nexus 4 months ago
Support our work directly by back-ordering a GN Modmat or Mouse Mat: store.gamersnexus.net/products/gn-wireframe-mouse-mat Watch our new Intel i3-10100 CPU review here: us-first.info/player/video/bNl6gHuBoWJqq3E.html
Joe Cospito
Joe Cospito Month ago
Sounds like DICE Stockholm
Peter Dolkens
Peter Dolkens Month ago
You need to stop using Kelvin as the demo when trying to communicate this to companies - you come off as some pedant nut. Instead, use F vs C - USA vs the rest of the world. That's a tangible thing for marketers to work with.
SeaJay Oceans
SeaJay Oceans Month ago
Thermaltake makes nice cases... no problems so far...
HawkFest
HawkFest Month ago
Their newest P8, targeting Workstations with E-ATX / CEB, is totally useless : an E-ATX would still cover the grommet holes for cables as it was actually designed for ATX, and the PSU vertical mounting makes it as such that it only has 8 expansion slots, with the last being too close to the side-window or the PSU top. And there's no option to mount the PSU horizontally (I've sent them an e-mail asking that question but got no answer since a week). More over, using a 1300/1600 PSU (like Corsair's being 200mm), would be much too close to the grommet hole for PSU cables, it'd be a mess. A P5 - or even P3 - would do the same job... Their marketing/design team is utterly clueless about computing, as they think an E-ATX main market would also be for Gamers or Office Word users.
J Knox
J Knox 2 months ago
Hey Steve, is it alright if I make a shirt that says it's not theory, it's math.
KRYPTON Kills
KRYPTON Kills 5 hours ago
DAMNNNNNN, Steve be Salllty
Kayle & the Yellow Submarine
All of these cases are terrible. Just remake the Core V21 to fit ATX. Kind of like turning the Corsair Carbide 740 on its side. But do it without turning it into a bulbous monstrosity. Too much wasted space in these cases.
Kayle & the Yellow Submarine
Who the f*** uses Kelvin? There's nothing wrong with measuring it in Celsius. You're grasping at straws. You're right about cooling the memory but you're rant about the temperature units was f****** retarded and a cringe to listen to. Everyone I've worked with in the last 25 years has always measured and compared PC/component temps in Celsius.
TzimisceVykos
TzimisceVykos 10 hours ago
i by me the Termaltake 900 " The Tower " Showcase 3 days ago. It is realy a .. Hulk :D ... Nice Cablemanagment is Possible, Radiator from AiO is in the back, Power is in the back. I realy like that huge Tower but, its a Airflow desaster ;) so much Space to make a effective airflow ... i still testing the best way to becom the cool air in, and hot air out ;)
Born Again
Born Again 12 hours ago
These fracks think we stupid .
Born Again
Born Again 12 hours ago
Where was thermaltake started?
Jason May
Jason May 17 hours ago
ive seen a lot more builds lately using thermaltake products. I dont get it? why would you put that trash in your machine? if youre already spending 140 on a case or a 240mm cooler there are way better options out there at that price.
Anon Anon
Anon Anon Day ago
11:55 i was like: ah okay sur WAIT WHAT
matthew keissard
matthew keissard 2 days ago
lol RIP thermaltake as a reputable company. I think every serious PC enthusiast watching this video isn't ever going to buy from them again until they seriously re think their design and marketing choices.
Louis
Louis 3 days ago
Wait they kind of undermarketed themselves with the ram lol. Heat transfer takes delta T from ambient into account so ram should be 41.67% cooler. Yeah you're right. They really can't logical thinking, let alone math.
phoenixfire8226
phoenixfire8226 3 days ago
"It's not a theory, it's like, math." laughed my ass off
John Klein
John Klein 3 days ago
I really like the ascetic of the Tower 900, but can’t find much on the airflow or thermals. Is it a case worth the cost?
Patty
Patty 4 days ago
Thermaltake more like Thermal Throttle
weetabixharry
weetabixharry 5 days ago
I'm really gutted about this. I've been using a Thermaltake Core V1 since 2015, which has been great. I broke the front panel audio connector through sheer stupidity and Thermaltake shipped me a replacement by priority international mail, for free, without asking any questions. Now I've saved up enough pennies to finally make the jump up to Ryzen and I thought a new Thermaltake case would be one of the first things on my shopping list, but instead I'll have to waste hours trawling through all the other brands.
Ryan Carter
Ryan Carter 6 days ago
I love how fucking ruthless this channel is. The rest of YT should follow Gamers Nexus' lead.
tlove21
tlove21 6 days ago
I so want to see the 4th dimension... lol... lmao
Char Pad
Char Pad 6 days ago
The math part had me dying xD
Porkleaker
Porkleaker 6 days ago
I never buy their junk.
MrRawalex
MrRawalex 6 days ago
I was looking at the RAM water cooler and all I could think of is "why would you want to take all the heat out of your CPU and run it through your RAM?"
Theory Neutral
Theory Neutral 7 days ago
"It's not a theory it's math" LMAOOOO loved this
Nick Wallette
Nick Wallette 7 days ago
20:34 - Needs captions: TT: "... and it goes on like th.. er, wait, no like this." ?: "You should rotate that." TT: "Huh? Oh, did I get it right the first time?" ?: ".. no." TT: "So like this?" ?: "NO. The other way." TT: "... like... wait.. like.. what way?" Everyone: *"LIKE THIS."* TT: "Oh. Huh? _This_ way? .. No that's not right. I don't get it."
Zalkavee
Zalkavee 7 days ago
I do like my level 10 gt case for the most part..... but it could be better. My cpu cooler does what it's spo's to but yeah. I agree. I've tried to get parts for my case only to be told that it's fraud and wasn't allowed to by the part.....
Kingneon 767676
Kingneon 767676 7 days ago
I would buy a Time Cube Tesseract case
Kevin birdofgreen
Thermaltake just released a smaller version of the AH T600, the AH T200. It has 320mm for a graphics card (so 3mm short of the larger AIB 3080's and 10mm shy of most 3090 AIB's), 150mm of clearance for a CPU air cooler (so about 10-15mm shy of where it needs to be for most standard CPU air coolers), but enough space for a 22mm high HDD behind the motherboard?????? The case is 282mm wide and 552 deep yet they decided not to account for stupidly simple things like mainstream graphics cards or standard height air coolers. It would be pathetically simple for them to move the front fans forward 10mm in this care to allow for even a monster sized 3090 AIB's and move the HDD drives to near the PSU (a giant empty space currently) instead of behind the motherboard to allow for even the largest of air coolers. They wouldn't even have to change the current size, just actually DESIGN the thing a little.
rockstickcomics
rockstickcomics 8 days ago
My buddy and I used to have thermaltake psus, after his fried his rig I switched to EVGA
Furry Gamer
Furry Gamer 8 days ago
LOL, imagine buying thermaltake garbage in 2020.
armiks22
armiks22 8 days ago
Ah, the good ol' timecube... Right up there with flat earth.. :D:D
Julian Cahillane
Julian Cahillane 8 days ago
my god this review is absolutely hilarious
John Smith
John Smith 8 days ago
Ok but with that diagonal glass case they could so make a modular case and it would literally be the best thing ever if that happened.
Josh Kridner
Josh Kridner 8 days ago
Basically cricket ls in a cup holes
Josh Kridner
Josh Kridner 8 days ago
Idk how I missed this, on the phone with a customer had to mute myself after the 4th dimension and seeing those air holes.
Aloa He
Aloa He 8 days ago
Hahaha they are the worst "engineers" on the planet... The Dust Filter at the bottom is a joke or?
Darren Mahoney
Darren Mahoney 9 days ago
Had my first experience with them. I bought an H15 Case. due to size nice but not enough to put your cables through and and you cant put two SSDS side by side. even though according to there manual which need magnifying glass to see.
Troll
Troll 9 days ago
8:12 - Hilarious... not a scientist in the bunch at Thermaltake, huh? You can actually even use Rankine as the "absolute Fahrenheit" scale and get the same number for %. (579.9 - 561.9)/579.9 = 3.1% But then you can see if you do Fahrenheit, not a 0 based scale either, and get a different % (120.2-102.2)/120.2 = 15% So it's pretty clear, if it's not 0 based, and you do this, you get meaningless numbers. And if you account for 0 energy being the base, you get the right number. Get wrecked Thermaltake. Btw, Core x9 Snow Edition here, it's a pretty solid case. Meaning it's sturdy. As for building in it, sucks, PSU bay is like just barely big enough and you have to fidget around with harddrive bays to get it in. Scratch the fuck out of my PSU.... I thought BIG CASE easy build. Nope, the fucking SSD mounts leave a tiny gap for the cables to come through so it's very difficult to plug in and feels like it's just not quite in. Cable management is a pain too because there's not many good routes that don't just leave a bundle of cables visible under the motherboard tray. I found after his review of AIO placement, the case sucks for that too, the optical drive bays at the front are 3 just barely above the motherboard, so when you put the pump on the CPU the radiator either twists the cables to be at the exhaust in the back and still at the bottom of the radiator, OR it's on the top, where there will be some air gaps on the inlet and outlet still and you get a little bubbling there. I put it at the front, with the tubes at the bottom and the top of the radiator is like 2mm above the top of the pump housing. So it's just barely, good. It still looks as cool as I expected, and it's big and sturdy like I expected, but all that interior space is wasted. Even when I get a custom loop with res and pump in there I'll have space for days and still be cramming cables in tiny little routes and making very hard bends on the wires.
Murphy deffa
Murphy deffa 9 days ago
Tower900 is good but too huge. Cooling solution is excelent. Also keeps dust out of system. But i had to modify case cos i wanted smaller and tower700 wont exist.
mike
mike 10 days ago
🤣 "it's not a theory it's math"
Allex M.B.P.
Allex M.B.P. 10 days ago
in my country the tower 100 ..is like 350-400 dollars :|
Ian Ccc
Ian Ccc 11 days ago
The dig on measuring temperature is unnecessary as a absolute measurement of energy - it's just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you want to put that way, then the current method human measure energy is also arbitrary for human with current understanding in science to comprehend. Go home Steve.
immortal_coil
immortal_coil 12 days ago
The Kelvin/Celcius thing was pretty damn embarrassing for a tech company.
AtotehZ
AtotehZ 12 days ago
7:04 Their delta over ambient is even better than 20% In their OC'd results the Floe RC 360 reduces the temp over ambient by 42%. From 24 to 14. Still don't know how relevant it is though. If 49 degrees after OC is the RAM they chose to showcase... the product seems irrelevant. Might as well liquid cool the fans in the computer.
M83 Collective
M83 Collective 12 days ago
Really just waiting on GN to get tired of dealing with case makers and go out to make their own case.
Angus1MacGyver
Angus1MacGyver 12 days ago
Maybe I'm not getting it, but every manufacturer, regardless of RAM, graphics card or CPU measures it's temperatures and makes claims about lower or higher temps this way. I don't get how that number is arbitrary as long as you mark it as celsius degrees.
Vrerelious FellShadow
Ya i got a shitty thermal take case that clearly a worker just speed rushed and didn't glue the damn wires to the power plug that is connected to the button and it kept causing my computer to shutdown reset.I of course figured it out after buying a new motherboard/processor and then took the case apart and saw that they just put glue all over the wire without it being fully seated,it pissed me off.
Sasha Alexander
Sasha Alexander 13 days ago
I feel bad for steve. Seeing his effort via that conversation go to waste made me sad
CHOAM Nomsky
CHOAM Nomsky 14 days ago
Steve's a savage.
David Holland
David Holland 14 days ago
I have to admit at the start of this video I thought you just had been burned by then. You so on the money, they really do almost make good products, almost!
DaddY SiegE
DaddY SiegE 14 days ago
"It's not a theory, it's like.... math" Me- Subscribe.
Fiery Apotheosis
Fiery Apotheosis 14 days ago
Man those towers should come with special huge fans
Robert Corkum
Robert Corkum 14 days ago
Fuck, the magic bag of holding and the fourth dimension, EPIC damn EPIC. kudos tesseract and time cube. if they don't get the point this should hit them with the spiked clue x 4.
EURIPODES
EURIPODES 14 days ago
"It's not a theory, it's math." I died.
ltx123FTW
ltx123FTW 15 days ago
I love this mans roast 😂
Evan Geiser
Evan Geiser 15 days ago
I have the tower 900 and the features and water-cooling support make it really a special case. I can see where it needs polish but overall I think they have really unique stuff it just needs more polish
Eduardo
Eduardo 15 days ago
Making a crap thermally constrained case for itx market where lots of consumers are hardcore cooling enthusiasts. Congratulations, you will sell 5 of those.
Christopher Blake
Christopher Blake 15 days ago
I'm dying...lmao where the bottom intake part gets air from the 4th dimension
J RA
J RA 15 days ago
Such a savage.
ProfTheWood
ProfTheWood 15 days ago
Thanks for Posting - Recently had a refused RMA return for a TT Toughpower Grand 650W (Gold Rated). 2 months of sudden random resets and, occasionally, failures to power on unless the pSU is switched off at the unit. Returned for RMA after lots of part swapping and triple checking RAM and RAM seating. Vendor accused me of 'overloading' despite showing them test data, event viewer logs and a 14 day test swapped out with a 'SMART PRO 750W Bronze' (suggested by Vendor) which showed no issues. The Vendor declined to share with me any of their test data, insisting that I 'chose wrong'. I now know that a TT do not directly make the PSU's (according to Tom's HW its made by Highpower) But anyone else had issues with their Toughpower PSU's? I have read some very negative reviews about this product line, lots of 'it will fry your PC' My system build is ASUS Z390E/9600KF/1080Ti EVGA SC2/RipJaws 4x4Gb 2800/H500P Mesh/660p 1TB M2 SSD/4TB SeaG Barracuda/CMaster Fancooler, Thanks from near the Mekong (note consumer rights).
ProfTheWood
ProfTheWood 15 days ago
PC Partpicker shows ~ 465W
victor
victor 15 days ago
And now I know where Jesus lives pfffhahahah do a shirt with that :D
Top Gaming
Top Gaming 15 days ago
The ram cooler is useful for something like the the pc pro that linus built because the ram in that thing heats up so much it requires dedicated active cooling
t3tsuyaguy1
t3tsuyaguy1 16 days ago
Does anyone know what's up with the pink kitten case? Uh...asking for a friend
Jake M
Jake M 16 days ago
I want to find more cases with the setup found in the Thermaltake 100/900... but good. Is there a name for the style of cases with the GPU ports oriented up?
sweettea . tony
sweettea . tony 16 days ago
Its math...
TheBlueberry606
TheBlueberry606 16 days ago
I love the tower 100 mini. But your right, you can't fix broke on this one. The will need some mesh sides. Everytime I see glass sides I cringe. I want to drill holes in them. If someone came up with a similar mini with some are flow, I'd buy that one, love the idea.
J M
J M 18 days ago
A decade ago they were offering great cases. V3 ,V6. I loved my V6 intel z68 2500k build. Sad to see how horrible they've become. The level 10 was beautiful. I remember when Corsair and EVGA were plain terrible and Asus was just getting started and you wouldn't be caught dead with an nzxt or part on your PC. Zalman, and those awesome copper cooler blooms like the cnps. Back then thermaltake was just quality stuff. Good job on your math!
Hayate Azekura
Hayate Azekura 18 days ago
I think Steve likes Silverstone
Shinsync
Shinsync 18 days ago
I love that he calls a basic scientific fact "your theory".
simon p
simon p 18 days ago
Who's here because their TT RGB Plus software crashes 10 seconds after opening.
Steven Jacobs
Steven Jacobs 19 days ago
Tell me how you really feel about that 100 case 😆 🤣 😂 😹
AegisHyperon
AegisHyperon 19 days ago
Is it math? Seems more like physics.
Mahlon Bullis
Mahlon Bullis 19 days ago
I know what you are saying about calculating percentages off of an non-absolute scale, but I don't think using Kelvin instead of delta over ambient provides better information to the consumer. To get the gist of the performance differences throwing away everything under the room temperature is fine, in my opinion.
Kebin. D
Kebin. D 19 days ago
i hope tech jesus never stops, puuuure profesionalism
r3sti
r3sti 19 days ago
The V21 was a reasonable nice Case. Good airflow and much space.
Steve K
Steve K 20 days ago
Why has GN not formed its own case manufacturing company?
ZTenski
ZTenski 20 days ago
RIP Gene Ray.
quantumtheo
quantumtheo 20 days ago
Lol, literally just bought a ThermalTake Core V71.... glad I went with a 4 year old design at this point, wish I could have gotten an A71 TBH....
fizwizzle1989
fizwizzle1989 21 day ago
Doing percentages like that, is the equivalent of me driving a car at 100 mph, and comparing myself to someone driving a 95 mph car by saying: I’m going to shift the origin to the 90 mph mark. Under my new convention I’m going at 10, he’s going at 5 so I’m twice as fast.
Daniel Wittum
Daniel Wittum 21 day ago
If you don’t make a “it’s not a theory, it’s math” t-shirt, it will be a missed opportunity.
N. O.
N. O. 21 day ago
OMG the time cube tessaract bag of holding air supply comment was pure gold.
Invisible Shadow
Invisible Shadow 21 day ago
That conference was reminiscent of konami infamous e3 presser... wan birrion troobs
Kur Norock
Kur Norock 21 day ago
Nit picking that 20% lower temperature thing was just stupid. You are looking for things to complain about. Regardless of how important you think it is to cool your ram, a 10 degree C drop is significant. You can whine about how it's not a big drop off you convert it to a scale that nobody actually uses outside of a science lab, but for the average consumer, 10 degrees is 10 degrees.
smartbart80
smartbart80 21 day ago
This video is nothing more but public shaming. I like it.
Mr Aires
Mr Aires 22 days ago
So... not to be that guy, but 20% different delta T in C is the same as in K, as they are deltas. So they should have shown the larger delta T's yes, I agree, but when considering net flux you can work interchangeably in C and K. Why? T1-T2 T1c=T1k-273.15 T2c=T2k-273.15 T1c-T2c (T1k-273.15)-(T2k-273.15) T1k-T2k Further, when discussing comparations between two thermal solutions, you need to understand how heat is calculated. Q=Ua(T2-T1) Q, the heat transferred, is equal to some transfer coefficient Ua (or U) times the difference in temperature. When discussing cooling solutions, your interest would be in maximizing U, as your given Q will always be constant as it is produced by your use case. Qc = Heat Convection (Our Constant) U=transfer coefficient (our Interest, but not actually measurable)(ALSO: the characteristic area is ignored as it is the same for both and would cancel) dt=delta T (What we can measure) Qc1=U1*dt1 Qc2=U2*dt2 Qc1=Qc2 U1/U2=td2/td1 %difference = ((U1-U2)/U2)*100% %difference = (U1/U2-1)*100% %difference = (td2/td1-1)*100% %difference =((td2-td1)/td1)*100% Thus, the percent difference in delta T IS the percent difference in the transfer coefficients. Also, as computers go faster, ram speeds will increase, and as ram speeds increase, so shall their thermal loads. As we are having issues with transistor gaps which are throttling clock frequencies, we are experiencing a distribution of tasks across many slower cores to compensate and this leads to increasing thermal loads elsewhere in the system. These ancillary thermal gains are caused as a continuation of prior thermal growth but is accentuated by the higher number of net calls by the processor. In short, as time continues, while increases in clock speeds will be seen as slowing in CPUs due to mathematical problems caused by the non-linearity of systems in the Ghz range (along with inter-electrode capacitance issues causing undo attenuation at such high frequencies,) we will not see those increases stop for ram. As frequency increases, net work also increases, with net work, comes increases in net heat, entropy and failure. Thermal solutions for ram are an inevitability, and as failures due to ram can be fairly difficult to pinpoint (due to rarity from my knowledge) I would personally rather cooling ram be covered by industry solutions sooner, rather than later.
Mr Aires
Mr Aires 22 days ago
(says in short and uses a statement just as long)
Nick von Sternberg
Nick von Sternberg 22 days ago
Needs (traditional) Chinese subtitles
MMORPG87
MMORPG87 22 days ago
nvr watch GN videos cause they are like The Bord gamer of PC parts vids but mad respect on calling out TT for being so shitty and not backing down, perhaps TT will high GN as an advisor to get product in line to what consumers want and need and hand him a FAT check for saving the company lol also the its not theory quote was awesome and should now be a shirt
Cold Pete
Cold Pete 22 days ago
The Artosis Pylon reference killed me.
Jannis Opel
Jannis Opel 23 days ago
With some common sense a beginner engineer constructs better cases. How a long standing case company can't even get the basics right is beyond me.
martin buxton
martin buxton 23 days ago
Fabulous and its very interesting to understand the temperature difference and the correct way to determine the percentage improvement. Marketing departments we need the to send them on the B ark along with the telephone sanitisers
nexxusty
nexxusty 24 days ago
He didn't understand what you said.
ILike Waffles
ILike Waffles 24 days ago
I got their thermaltake core v21. I like the concept of the graphics card not being pulled down with gravity like a vertical set up. Wish they continued with that concept and improved it. Its perfect for my setup so i dont have to lug a heavy pc around every 6 months
GiggleFactory
GiggleFactory 25 days ago
"It's not a theory it's like... math." hahahahaha
Ed
Ed 25 days ago
Bruh, you totally didn't get it, they wanted to make a vacuum chamber but failed :-P
modarid
modarid 25 days ago
Hahahahaga had me dead at 16:40 much much later. Remind me of spong bob
worldwed AU
worldwed AU 25 days ago
Thermaltake has always sucked, every person I know who has bought their stuff has had issues. Their aesthetic is tacky and cheap looking and should only impress kids under 12. If you're spending money to build your own system, please invest in good quality parts, it's not a waste and will save you pain in the long run.
Kevin Day
Kevin Day 25 days ago
21:55 To be fair, if the computer is expected to be viewed from the very angle that you shot this footage at, the current orientation of the panel is probably the best one, and the orientation you suggested would end up blocking even more of the view. But if the panel is going to block anything at all, it should at least be configurable by the user. Otherwise they're limiting themselves to as little as 1/4 of the potential market for this case.
griffn1
griffn1 25 days ago
"It's not a theory, it's math." Drawing from the ghost of Verizon Math. Haha
Josh D
Josh D 26 days ago
Was searching online for cases and of course came upon alot of you videos. Thank you for this. Thermaltake must think their consumers are idiots. Keep up the good work!
HDR Engine Development
I still have one of those Tt 3 blade fans from an old Volcano 12 athlon XP cooler from way back in the day at this point. They used to be pretty decent then.
RMJ1984
RMJ1984 26 days ago
Could actually be interesting having a big square tower like this, with like a 400 mm fan at the top and at the bottom, so the case basically becomes one big air tunnel
charles norris
charles norris 26 days ago
lol bag of holding.
Mike Hersee
Mike Hersee 26 days ago
Some of those case design flaws were just staggering and demonstrate a total lack of understanding of basic principles. You wonder how they managed to stay in business with that level of stupidity. There's clearly something wrong at the top for this to be continuing.
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